Matrix: Reloaded **possible SPOILERS**

[Ski]

I think this will be the jist of it....From the Keanu interveiw he give a bit away.....

"but they don't propose a finality to it; they don't say, 'Here's the answer.' Except for, and this will be revealed more in 'Revolutions,' they do come to something and I think -- it sounds really goofy, but it's about love."

Love, the one force in the world ALOT of people will die and do dumb things for....And I know how some of you veiw love I.E. not a powerful force. but I think that this MAY be where it's going.

[Jelymo]

ooooo ... THAT has some definite possibilities ...

*grin*

[Jelymo]

now THAT i have mixed feelings about. depending on how they go about it, however, i may enjoy the conclusion. but if they do it wrong, and make it like some dumb, sappy romantic comedy drivel, i'm going to have a problem. *shrug* but that's just the way i am.

oh, and i didn't like that part with Niobe either, now that you mention it. the boys had tons of reasons to clash, but the one reason that they chose was Niobe. and why can't they just have a strong woman in there doing what they WANT to do for THEMSELVES, and not one of the men? Trinity does everything for Neo, Niobe for Locke or Morpheus. like, hello, not all women base their life decisions on the men in their lives. i'd like to think that by whatever year it is there, that women have developed a bit more of a backbone. Link's woman fits in with trinity and niobe, though, if you think about it. she doesn't like him doing what he's doing for morpheus and wants him home instead; niobe's decisions are related to either morpheus or locke; and trinity's all about neo -- the male characters are the weakness of the female characters. and looking at it that way, niobe and trinity are almost just as irritating as link's wife. it's always irritated me that trinity's life purpose is to fall in love with the One, and that's it. sure she fights and kicks ass and all that awesome stuff, but .... gah.

maybe i'm overanalyzing. i don't know.

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ June 11, 2003 06:21 AM: Message edited by: Jelymo ]</font>

[tyledras]

I think we are all overanalyzing. Of course, that doesn't mean the material isn't actually there

I think what pisses me off the most, is that there really is a lot of depth available in this movie, but its still badly done. Terminator was a weaker movie, plot wise and all, but I think it was the better made of the two. I spend less time in Terminator wanting to throw rotten fruit. Even though I completely think that Matrix has a better and more in depth plot. Its like, they had this amazing fabulous idea and it just kind of sagged in places. It didn't quite follow through all the way. Doesn't quite have that OOMPH. There were moments when I felt I was watching an multimillion dollar soft porn instead of a pop film.

ok, ok, I'm done bitching.

I do think its cool that we have a movie which comments not only on the created world of the matrix (machines bad, rule our lives. Warning to future generations, be careful when making AI. like we haven't heard the message before, here is a cool new take on it)
but it also comments a lot more on people themselves, not just the situation in the movie world.
According to the Architect, people aren't happy in a perfect world, people aren't happy in a completely fallen world, they have to make this celicate balance with failsafes to catch those with whom it doesn't work.
People can't live in a world controlled by machines and be free. Bu Zion isn't free either. Here we have a city named for the city which in the book Revelations is the city which is made up of all believers, its the heavenly, perfect city.
And yet in this version of Zion, we see it isn't true at all. It doesn't live up to any kind of beatific vision. They are still dependant on machines, still living a hellish life, where the food has no flavor and everything is bland and looks run down. And the people have a temple, but they worship nothing. The only thing which even comes close to it is the intense, almost animalistic fervor with which they greet their own accomplishments. I won't call it tribal, because tribes usually worhsip a higher being, a god of some kind, and these people don't. Their prayer is a call to remember how far they have come on their own, and to look to themselves for their own salvation. There is no outward turning, it is all inward, to themselves. They dance and celebrate themselves. They've dug their own version of hell, and they can't leave it. They can't survive without it. They can't even visualize life outside of Zion. They have trapped themselves, they are trapped inside themselves, inside their desires. People act and react based less and less on rationality, and more on emotions, desires, appetites. Example being what was said earlier. The reasoning behind the women's actions are their men. Morpheus and the other captain act towards eachother out of antagonism. There is no reason there. They all seem driven by emotions and desires. The councilor talks and talks, but admits he has no point. his entire speach is about how he feels concerning Zion. Even Morpheus is acting because he believes Neo is The One who will save Zion. He can't see a reality outside of that. Once he accepts it, he moves forward and doesn't let anything stop him. The only one who comes close to seeing reason is Neo. He stops and questions the world around him, refuses to accept that reality is what people tell him it is. He constantly pushes the boundaries of the world around him, not only in the matrix, but outside as well. He refuses to accept the hero worship of the kid who follows him, is not comfortable withthe hero worship of the others in Zion. He never accepts that his place is what they believe it to be. and he's right. It isn't. He is able to break free because he believes in something higher. something outside that reality. He knows the limits he sees do not define the real world.
And I doubt its an accident that he falls in love with Trinity. Trinity saves him. Love (not lust) for her pulls him back from death. Or maybe its her love for him, but I personally think it amounts to the same thing. Trinity being a name for God. Neo's found something higher. And he leaves everything else behind for it. He chooses her over everything else that's laid at his feet. he can build a new Zion. He can have the power. He can save himself, save the human race, he can create a new Zion, he can be almost like god. But he has to deny Trinity. The comparison which comes to mind (linked because Trinity is a reference to god) is the temptation of Christ in the desert, when Satan offers him power, wealth, the world, if only he will deny god and follow satan.
Neo chooses Trinity of course.
And as many philosophers and theologians say, what is god, if not love? Love has already won the day, in the first movie, again in the second movie. So it would HAVE to win the day in the third movie if the story is to hold up.

Am i talking out my rear, or does any one else think there might be something to this? Now that I've typed it, I'm not so sure.

[erisesoteric]

No, you've something there, and I like it. Especially the bit about Trinity and God, and the temptation bit. I think I was intentionally blinding myself to that one, focusing more on Trinity as humanity as a whole because saving Trinity is the also the last chance to truly save humanity. Personal blips on my part. But I like it.

A possible explanation of Zion: Zion consists of two kinds of people, those who only knew the matrix before Zion, and those who only know Zion. They may well have a tendancy to avoid all thought of higher beings being their salvation, because anything they would have learned of religion would have been learned in the Matrix, and would be especially suspect. They know very little of real history, and they have spent their lives subjugated by "higher beings." Religion may be something left behind in the Matrix, because they reject *all* things that seem like a form of mass control. And, our differences asside, I think we both do agree that one of the unfortunate uses of religion *is* mass control. Therefore, having nothing that they can trust to save them, they rely soley on themselves.

Now, here's a thought... running with my "Zion is another Matrix" theory... if that *is* indeed true, then everything they know there is what the machines intend for them to find. Is it possible that the machines left out religion in creating Zion? Deliberately, I mean... as a way of isolating them, and forcing them to live a life dependant only on themselves?

And Tyle... for someone who claims to hate the movie as much as you do, you've had some of the best ideas about it that I've seen so far. Keep them coming, girl.

[tyledras]

well, i may personally think the movie was badly done, but the ideas behing it are impressive. I do give it that.

And you are totally right. Religion has been used to control people (and still is) and it is altogether very feasible that the people of Zion would see it as belonging to the machine world as nothing but another form of control. And that would also be an attitude very supportive of the idea that Neo is NOT the one, for the large number of people in Zion who took that stand.
And per your second idea, if I were the machines, *I* would definitely leave out both religion and anything which fostered too much independant thinking. Kind of like public school.

The more the machines can influence the thinking of those in Zion, the more easily controlled the people are.

It does still interest me that in the conversation between Neo and the councilor in Zion that the councilor readily admits that he has no point, while Neo very quickly finds a point in what the councilor says, and then he makes several more. I wonder, to how many of the other characters can this type of thinking pattern be applied?

[erisesoteric]

That's a good question. The only one I can come up with is Smith... who feels he has been robbed of his purpose, and so finds a new one. OK, so his sole purpose is hurting Neo, but it's still a purpose.

And maybe I only came up with that answer because I'm still turning Smith over in my mind.

****

Neo vs Smith: the best of Mankind against the worst of the machines. Smith is everything we fear about machines, and AI. He starts out as completely amoral, doing what he perceives (has been programmed to perceive) as his duty. Then that duty is removed, but he still retains all of his powers. Power without purpose... the last thing he was to do before he "died" was to "stop" Neo (ie: make things difficult for Neo in order to cultivate the traits that the Matrix needed in the anomoly). Dead, disconnected, he no longer has the external force of the Matrix informing him of what he must do. He now has the ability to choose his own path. But he is a machine, and incapable of creating a new path for himself. He simply chooses to continue following the path he was on before being disconnected... stopping Neo.

I think that's the point of Agent Smith... not just to be the big bad guy that Neo kicks around... but to show what is really dangerous in the machine... the combination of the lack of creativity, and the amorality.

Also, note that Neo and Smith both become infinately more powerful once they become disconnected from the Matrix, and begin to play the game by their own rules.

****

I think there's also something in the fact that the deification of Neo by the people of Zion does not affect Neo in anyway. His power is in the Matrix... if he wanted, he could take power in Zion at any moment... but he doesn't. The true beneficiery of the worship by Zion of Neo is Morpheus. Morpheus uses his second hand power, uses it ruthlessly, but uses it as well as he can considering the information that he has. Morpheus's situation is similar to Neo's as well.

Neo is "fated" to destroy the Matrix. Neo's powers all lie within the Matrix. Destroying the Matrix makes Neo just a regular person. What happens to the high priest when the god becomes a mortal? All of Morpheus's energy is devoted to unlocking his people, and Neo is the key. What would he do once the key is turned and the lock is opened?

[tyledras]

Now that is a good question. I think Morpheus would find something useful to occupy him, but I imagine there would be a period of time with him standing around feeling purposeless.

Good post, other than seeming to tempt me with that other question.

[Branflakes]

tyle has stated my feelings toward the second movie better than I did (or could). Perfect, a movie with great ideas that fell short. Thanks.

I have nothing to add, since y'all have gone much deeper into this movie than I did. Keep it coming.

[erisesoteric]

A friend of mine has posited a theory that I'm working my way around. She tells me that, in the first movie, when Neo used his powers to "pass through" Smith, Neo they "mingled," with Smith becoming part human, and Neo becoming part machine.

At first I was dubious on this theory, because they were using it to explain how Neo could have used his Matrix powers outside of the Matrix. Their theory was that, as part machine, Neo has control of machines, or some such.

I didn't much like this theory, being much more attached to my own (really, if I'm right, it does explain so MUCH about Zion).

But then, I got to thinking that one theory doesn't necessarily negate the other one. If both theories are true, I can keep my wonderful hypothosis.

So, going with the theory that they don't do ANYTHING in this movie without it having a POINT... what would be the POINT of the "neo as machine" theory? It's pure Nietzsche: Battle not with monsters, lest you become a monster, and when you gaze into the abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." And there are already elements of this idea present in Zion, to an extent. In order to save humanity from the machines, they must use machines. In order to keep Zion alive, they must use machines. This is just a higher order example.

So, if this theory is true, what becomes of the climax scene? Is Neo defeating the machine part of himself by choosing the more difficult path to salvation? Or is he taking the amoral machine path by choosing to save Trinity rather than saving everybody?